piracy, record companies and the future

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    Cap'n Lee
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    piracy, record companies and the future

    Post by Cap'n Lee on Thu May 06, 2010 1:36 am

    i've just read an article about worries amongst the music industry due to newer, easier methods of freely sharing music

    http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2010/04/the-freeloaders/8027/

    i know i've ranted about this plenty of times before, but does anyone care enough to chip in with their feelings on the article or the matter in general?
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    The Amazing Fletch
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    Re: piracy, record companies and the future

    Post by The Amazing Fletch on Thu May 06, 2010 9:05 am

    Personally I won't download music for free out of principle. Most of the public who do will say that the artists earn so much money that they won't even notice the difference but who are they to decide who deserves to be paid for and who doesn't?

    Because my musical tastes fall into a niche, I understand that most of the bands that I listen to aren't superstars with major record deals. A lot of the time they are genuine down to earth people who don't drive around in gold plated hummers and more jewelry to put Mr. T to shame. I was talking to someone about the new Skints album and asked what they thought of it. They enjoyed it but when I asked where they get it from they guiltily answered, "I downloaded it." It was only a tenner for fuck's sake! I've definitely got my money's worth out of it already. The way they answered also shows that they know it's wrong but they did it anyway.

    Now what I don't think is helping is the fact that iTunes charges 59p for a song. What overheads do they have? Practically none.

    Now I'm no saint. I still use filesharing programs. Not for music but for TV programmes and an occasional film if somebody offers it to me. I have a subscription to Lovefilm and DVDs come out so soon after their theatrical release that all it takes is a little patience and I can watch it at home. With TV programmes I think that I could have watched it for free anyway if it was on TV at the right time so there's no harm in it. I know TV programmes come out on DVD too but I'm never guaranteed that I will get the next set of discs straight after the one I've just watched with Lovefilm.

    Here's Lily Allen's view on the whole thing

    I'm not a big fan of her music but I do like her attitude towards this situation.
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    Cap'n Lee
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    Re: piracy, record companies and the future

    Post by Cap'n Lee on Thu May 06, 2010 10:14 am

    you know Lily Allen put a load of other people's music up on her site for free download without seeking permission? When an artist complained about it, she said something along the lines of 'i'm giving you free publicity, what is wrong with that?'
    I agree with her entirely on that point, who could possibly object to an opportunity to have their music listened to by the huge audience that is lily allen's fan base?

    I don't agree with the finger pointing at successful musicians, compare lily allen's touring for example with radioheads, lily allen plays a couple of festivals and thats it

    http://www.lilyallenmusic.com/lily/tourdates
    http://www.radiohead.com/tourdates/

    Lily is relying on the ever fickle radio listeners as her sole source of income, I don't think its fair to compare her efforts at owning a fleet of ferraris with a band that toured like hell to get noticed. The defense ed o'brien gave was that it gets people to the gigs and it keeps people interested in the music. If you aren't reaping those rewards you likely will suffer for it.



    I buy my albums for the same reasons you gave, however I steal the hell out of music I want from the following leabels:
    Spoiler:
    112
    1500
    19. Records
    2.O.G.
    241
    333 Music
    5 Minute Walk
    5.1 Entertainment
    Electromatrix
    Immergent
    Myutopia
    Silverline
    510
    57
    A&E Latin Music
    A440
    Abkco
    Acony
    AD
    Aleho
    Alice
    Alligator
    Amaru
    Ambar
    American Empire
    American Gramaphone
    Amiata
    Angels
    Antra
    Archive
    Ardent
    Aries Music Entertainment, Inc.
    Ark 21
    Arsenal
    Artanis
    Astoria Entertainment
    Atrium
    Audium Entertainment
    AV8
    Avatar
    Avenue Records
    AWOL
    Axiom
    Bad Dog
    Ballers Entertainment
    Barak Entertainment
    Barb Wire Productions
    Barco
    Bass Productions
    Beat Club
    Beauty
    Beginner's Bible
    Beiler Bros
    Bellmark
    Berman Brothers
    Best Side
    Bibleman
    Big Baller
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    Big Cat
    Big Deal
    Big Dog
    Big Ear Music
    Big Idea Productions
    Big Machine Records
    Big Screen Music
    Big Tree
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    Big World
    Bigtyme
    Black Market
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    Bliss
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    Jazz Alliance
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    Stretch Records
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    Easydisc
    Eclipse Music Group
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    Capitol
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    Flashpoint International
    Flava Unit Entertainment
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    Flawless
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    Fome
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    Friday
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    Furious
    Garden City
    Garland
    Garmex
    Gasoline Alley
    Gazillion
    Genie Entertainment
    Gfunk
    Ghetto Youth International
    Glassnote
    Gold Circle
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    Good News
    Grammy Nominee Project
    Grape Tree
    Great Performances
    Green Linnet
    GTS
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    GWK
    H-Town
    H2E
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    Hammer & Lace
    Harmony
    HBO
    Heart
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    Heartery
    Herb Harris Music Co.
    Hieroglyphics
    High Performance
    High Street
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    Hightone
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    Hyperdisk
    I Am
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    Ice
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    InPop
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    Invisible Sound
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    MSC Music Entertainment
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    I didn't realise when I bought GTA4 that they fund the riaa, so that was a bit of a lapse, but i won't be buying another rockstar game

    Fletchedit: Lee sucks!!!

    Leedit: How the hell did you do that, feltch? I just read an interesting piece on game piracy on the Wolfire blog (i've mentioned them before). I know it isn't exactly comparable but it is an interesting defence on the kinds of numbers that get thrown around on how much damage piracy is doing.

    The tl;dr of it is just that pirates go through media a lot faster than legitimate buyers, it reminded me of the study that showed if you watch TV with the remote in your hand, you enjoy the show less.
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    iamemmao
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    Re: piracy, record companies and the future

    Post by iamemmao on Thu May 06, 2010 12:58 pm

    I don't download music for free unless the bands themselves are offering it free. So I buy all my tunes whether the band is big or small, whether its a CD or I get it off iTunes... bands are providing a service, putting a lot of work into it and they should get paid for it. I expect to get paid for the work I do, so they should as well...

    But one of my friends downloads completely everything and then might buy the CD if the band is 'worthy' of it, got to be one of the stupidest things I've ever heard Rolling Eyes

    I hate pants copies of films/TV shows. So I bought Lost on itunes as we don't have sky, or a TV at the moment for that matter. And for films I either see it in the cinema or get it off lovefilm...

    I'm not a fan of illegal downloading.
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    Cap'n Lee
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    Re: piracy, record companies and the future

    Post by Cap'n Lee on Thu May 06, 2010 1:24 pm

    iamemmao wrote:bands are providing a service, putting a lot of work into it and they should get paid for it. I expect to get paid for the work I do, so they should as well...

    playing devil's advocate, how much did you get paid for drawing the unhappy dog? did you expect payment? if I enjoyed seeing it, should I have sent you some money?

    It seems as though both sides of the argument have this sense of entitlement. Musicians demanding that their art be profitable and downloaders seeing no moral issue with helping themselves to whatever they like. The list of artists that died before their paintings became popular is pretty much endless, and it would be a huge shame if they had decided after a painting or two that there was no money in it and refuse to do it any more.

    An artist is supposed to be doing it for the art, not the paycheck, Lily Allen made it perfectly clear by whining about Ferraris and refusing to release more music that she had no interest in the art, she wanted the fame and she wanted the money. I think that music is better off without any of these imposters.

    I really enjoy playing in a band (as a complete amateur, of course) and enjoy drawing (again, as an amateur) and have spent countless hours exploring these fields. I expect to die without ever making money from either of these hobbies, thats what they are. If someone was to pay me for doing it, I would take them up on the offer, but to stamp my feet and demand money for doing what I love sounds ludicrous to me. I think this is what gets up my nose about the whole thing.

    I am not pro-piracy, but I am for a system that is fair on everyone. That is why I refuse to support a company that supports the riaa, a business built on litigation is a failure of the legal system. Ruining the lives of a handful of customers as a supposed deterrent to the rest of us is very upsetting, and I don't want to be a part of it.

    Leedit: I don't want to sound like i'm arguing with either of you on this, I understand that this is too big an issue to be decided by a semi-scouse, semi-geordie and a manx (so lets leave it to big business and corrupt lords to decide for us Smile) so this is my little disclaimer and pre-apology.

    also, thanks will be dished out at some point, thats worth like 3 rep or something
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    iamemmao
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    Re: piracy, record companies and the future

    Post by iamemmao on Thu May 06, 2010 4:01 pm

    Na I fully get you, it's a difficult one thats for sure! If I painted a painting, I would do because I love it and wouldn't except people to buy it or look at it etc, but it would be awesome if someone did and I guess that's the same with being in a band, you love it so you do it, its just natural. Its when it gets very business like and people want to make careers out of it that it gets a bit cut throat... The art and music thing wasn't the best example but I find there's a huge difference between me being a artist (just stuff I like to do, hobby etc) and being a designer (client based, direct markets, having money to feed myself etc)....

    BUT all in all, I think people should pay for music!

    Edit: Actually I just thought, back in the day when tapes and stuff were around, we used to record songs we liked on the radio, I guess that could be seen as downloading? Swiping from somewhere else? Hmmmm.... it is a pickle of a subject this one!
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    Re: piracy, record companies and the future

    Post by Cap'n Lee on Thu May 06, 2010 4:22 pm

    do you not remember when the artists were saying that the music business was doomed because people were copying tapes? this is nothing new

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Taping_Is_Killing_Music

    the earliest i'm aware of was this piece of scare-tactic hyperbole where a msuician warns that by allowing music to be played on a player piano will stop new music from being made and cause evolutionary loss of vocal cords



    I think the important thing to note with threats that the music business will die because of a recent innovation is that although they try to focus on the music side of the coin, it is the business side that will suffer, and the business side alone.

    Leedit:To end on a question (that encourages discussion) would you see a moral issue with downloading an album that was out of print? you could buy it off ebay, but you could also download it for free.

    2nd Leedit:Actually, nuts to it, i'm going to end with a quote from a true artist and master of his craft-

    Captain Hotknives wrote:If I wanted to make money i'd be fucking selling coke
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    Re: piracy, record companies and the future

    Post by Reel Big Moose on Thu May 06, 2010 10:27 pm

    im a fan of downloading and of buying, if i download something and dont like it i will delete it, if i like it i will buy it, unless its by a band who screw their fans over with absurd ticket prices and the like. I think its an interesting debate, i think friends swapping mp3s to get each other into new music is a godsend to the industry, but people who download regularly whole albums can only have a negative impact, particularly on those smaller bands that are the mainstay of scenes like ours (your sb6, random hand, capdown, skints et al) at the same time though without the exposure of a few taster mp3s a lot of smlaler bands wouldnt get started on the way. like most things it comes down to moderation.
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    Re: piracy, record companies and the future

    Post by The Amazing Fletch on Thu May 06, 2010 10:36 pm

    That's the nail on the head there. Basically there is no straight answer.

    There's the, "Dude, you should check out this song by this band," who will have bought the album and then their friend hears that song and then goes and buys it. There's also the people who just download an album for the sake of it.

    How many people will say that they will buy it if they like it but never get round to actually doing it?
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    Re: piracy, record companies and the future

    Post by Reel Big Moose on Thu May 06, 2010 10:38 pm

    thanks feltch, reps to lee for hotknives quote:D
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    Re: piracy, record companies and the future

    Post by Cap'n Lee on Fri May 07, 2010 12:01 am

    The Amazing Fletch wrote:How many people will say that they will buy it if they like it but never get round to actually doing it?
    i'm as guilty of that as anyone, the urgency is lost once you have it, it becomes a 'i keep meaning to do that' thing
    still, i recall watching a dvd rip of speed racer, once it finished i immediately went on to play.com and bought it, it was too good of a film to allow me not reimburse the creators
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    Re: piracy, record companies and the future

    Post by Parg on Mon May 10, 2010 8:17 pm

    I don't really download (or buy) music very often. Since I don't listen to many bands on big record labels I feel a bit guilty downloading smaller bands' stuff for free cos I'm guessing they don't sell that many CDs anyway.

    That said, I have downloaded songs before - either because I just ordered the CD and want to listen to it straight away, because I can't find a physical copy anywhere or because I don't have any money at the time (but I will go to gigs and buy t-shirts or something whenever I can).

    As for tv shows, I do watch quite a lot of them online but I figure that they're shown on TV for free anyway so it's no different from watching it recorded on a dvd or something like that.

    (I posted here because I just bought an MP3 from Amazon. I had £1.40 in my account (because I'm so rich) and got one for 79p. It let me download it ok but I got an email from them saying they can't bill me. I checked online and 99p was taken out of my account. So I have no idea what's going on really)
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    Re: piracy, record companies and the future

    Post by The Amazing Fletch on Mon May 10, 2010 8:31 pm

    Also with Amazon, if you want to download a full album you have to download their downloading software. That just adds even more hassle for people.
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    Re: piracy, record companies and the future

    Post by Cap'n Lee on Tue May 11, 2010 1:23 am

    Parg wrote:As for tv shows, I do watch quite a lot of them online but I figure that they're shown on TV for free anyway so it's no different from watching it recorded on a dvd or something like that.

    http://www.boingboing.net/2010/05/04/tv-economics-101-why.html
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    Re: piracy, record companies and the future

    Post by Parg on Tue May 11, 2010 2:12 am

    Ah right I always figured most of the money was in advertising, not licensing.
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    Re: piracy, record companies and the future

    Post by Cap'n Lee on Tue May 11, 2010 10:55 am

    i do it myself where there isn't a legit option, whenever theres a legit version i use that
    (legit versions push the others out of the market anyway)
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    Re: piracy, record companies and the future

    Post by Cap'n Lee on Wed May 19, 2010 1:01 pm

    Memma may have 'doing the right thing' on her side, but at least I have Peter Serafinowicz
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    Re: piracy, record companies and the future

    Post by iamemmao on Wed May 19, 2010 2:17 pm

    I is well naughty remember. That's an interesting read though... I have to admit that I've downloaded stuff that I've already bought back in the day... I downloaded curse of monkey island onto my mac last year because my disc was broken and I thought I wasn't going to pay for it again...
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    Re: piracy, record companies and the future

    Post by Furious D on Wed May 19, 2010 8:27 pm

    [quote="Cap'n Lee"]
    iamemmao wrote:It seems as though both sides of the argument have this sense of entitlement. Musicians demanding that their art be profitable and downloaders seeing no moral issue with helping themselves to whatever they like. The list of artists that died before their paintings became popular is pretty much endless, and it would be a huge shame if they had decided after a painting or two that there was no money in it and refuse to do it any more.

    A couple things to think about - when a band releases an album, it can cost a fairly considerable amount of money to record, press and release it (unless you record it and release it yourself etc, but let's be honest, the majority of DIY recordings are utter pap, so it's a worthy investment).
    This money has to come from somewhere or be recouped from somewhere, and CD sales are normally the one that matters, as most bands don't get any kind of fee guarantee for gigs and stuff beyond petrol, if at all. And if you're consistently losing out on money from CD sales because people are downloading instead, that really really can make a difference to smaller bands, not that it would stop them making their music, but it can make it a damn sight harder.
    Also, as an aside, if you decided to sell a painting, and someone nicked it and made a copy instead, that wouldn't be fair for you, since you'd made the choice to sell it, and someone else had made the choice that they'd have it for free.

    On another note, people downloading albums are much, much more throwaway with what they get - there's nothing special about what they've got, it was easy, they didn't have to move, they didn't have to wait, they didn't have to earn anything in order to acquire it. Therefore people are much more willing to just write it off, move on and forget about it.
    Gone are the days of buying something you don't really like, but you've bought it so it sits in your CDrack till you try it again later - and then you love it.
    Now you can just delete it and move on to something else and decree that you 'don't like that band'. And that's sad if you ask me, some of my favourite music ever has been a bit of a slow-burn and I've not enjoyed it in the first instance.

    And finally, speaking from personal experience, you prepare and release an album for people to hear, and it should be up to you how, and more importantly when they get to hear it - it's your art, you've spent a long time getting it right and getting it ready, and then suddenly it's in the public domain and being judged before it was meant to be, unfinished and premature. As before, if you were doing a big new painting and someone came and took a photo of it before you were done and started showing people it, you'd be pretty fucked off I should imagine (not aimed at anyone in particular, I know I would be).


    The first two points obviously have counter-arguments, just food for thought really.
    With the first one, no doubt someone'll say 'but then the person comes to the gig and buys a t-shirt or something', which is interesting but not necessarily true (CDs sell waaaaaaaay more than shirts if people are gonna buy anything) and definitely not fair on the bands. Most bands would do much better if people were given the choice to buy their music after seeing them live.
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    Re: piracy, record companies and the future

    Post by The Amazing Fletch on Wed Jun 02, 2010 6:41 pm

    I was just about to buy the mp3 album 'Toxicity' by System of a Down on Amazon.

    Amazon wrote:Important Message
    We're sorry. We could not process your order because of geographical restrictions on the product which you were attempting to purchase. Please refer to the terms of use for this product to determine the geographical restrictions. We apologize for the inconvenience.

    I could get my wife to buy it for me and then email it to me or something but I will probably just download it from other, less legitimate sources now.
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    Re: piracy, record companies and the future

    Post by Cap'n Lee on Wed Jun 02, 2010 6:44 pm

    www.cracked.com/articleimages/ob/piratebay_header.jpg" alt="" />
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    Re: piracy, record companies and the future

    Post by The Amazing Fletch on Wed Jun 02, 2010 6:50 pm

    I didn't want to download their pointless download manager again anyway.
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    Re: piracy, record companies and the future

    Post by The Amazing Fletch on Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:05 pm

    "Spotify is not available in your country"

    DICKS!!
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    Re: piracy, record companies and the future

    Post by The Amazing Fletch on Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:00 pm

    In this latest episode of "Fletch hates the intrinsics of the media industry", I tried to add the film Kick-Ass to my Lovefilm rental list. It turns out that Universal Pictures have had a dispute with Lovefilm over pricing and won't let them release any of their new titles for rental.

    I don't want to buy it, I just want to see it once. People who legitimately want to rent movies will do so using a service such as Lovefilm. Instead I'm going to download a HD copy and watch it without having to wait for the post. You've just shit out there, Lovefilm and Universal. Instead of making a 'small' profit from whatever you're fighting about, you'll likely get nothing. Get your act together.

    DICKS!!
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    Re: piracy, record companies and the future

    Post by Cap'n Lee on Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:17 pm

    these disputes tend to last 1 quarter at the most, after that the shareholders start asking where the hell the profits have gone, the same thing happened with warner music refusing to allow their tracks to be used on rock band

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